Reflections: Timaeus' account of creation is almost as unbelievable as the Bible's.
Might Plato have accepted that the universe could not be explained and understood? He tried heartily to do just that in his Timaeus. My initial reaction to this dialogue was one of wonder: The question put to Timaeus (by Socrates) regarding a perfectly-run city in a time of war is hardly addressed. Rather, Timaeus goes on (and on) about the makeup of the cosmos with no real physical evidence to back it up. Living in Athens at a time when society was crumbling around him, Plato seems to have a compulsive need of controlling the knowledge of how the world works in its entirety. Was this one of Plato's intentions for writing this dialogue? What was he really trying to say and when can we take his writing at face-value?; When is he writing in metaphor?
There are stark differences between Plato's picture of the world's creation and other creation myths such as Genesis. The most striking is that Plato's approach is mechanical and scientific (despite his wildly unscientific claims) as opposed to allegorical. That aside, the prescriptions of how one should live and behave amount to be the same in both.
Many Creation stories (Genesis and The Epic of Gilgamesh, for example) come from a time when cities were beginning to form, around the time when agriculture was starting to take hold (circa 5000 BC). Eventually, walled cities with fortifications were needed to protect crops, land, food surplus/cache, from jealous rivals or raiders... The transition from groups of nomadic and mobile hunter-gatherers to one of relatively sedentary city-dwellers had certain requirements. Most requirements amount to how one should behave. Two examples: Do not commit murder; do not steal. How can a city survive if these two basic concepts are not observed?Both Genesis and the Timaeus contain a moral code that a population must follow in order for the population to remain in order, or civilized. Interestingly, these stories take very different paths in getting to similar moral points. Genesis conveys its lessons through symbols and allegory while the Timaeus explains its message through dialogue.
Timaeus' "dialogue" takes place a day or two after Socrates' on "Justice" (in The Republic). Are Timaeus' descriptions of the world an extension of the ideal republic, projected to the cosmos and the human soul? (Expanding to the cosmos and contracting to the individual)? Socrates' and Timaeus' visions are ones that should be used as models for our own lives, i.e. if we understand and recognize the perfection of Socrates' Republic as well as Timaeus' account of everything else, we will more likely recognize when we, as individuals, go astray and move out of harmony with the natural and good orderliness of the universe. For example, 89e - 90c: There are 3 types of soul that reside within us - balance between them must be kept. The trappings of earthly ambitions lead to mortal thoughts and render one "merely mortal". However, if one seeks knowledge and goodness and truth, immortality, "...Keeping well-ordered the guiding spirit that lives within him". If we have fallen out of harmony with what is "good", we must come to relearn the revolutions of the universe and follow their rhythm. Compared with Creation Myths, Plato's focus on the Physical leaves no need for the Anthropomorphic Supernatural, as Judaism did at the time and some later religions (Catholicism, Islam) would.
Plato's entire opus is said to equal the length of the modern bible but how unfortunate that his lab books did not survive to this day... As someone with a background in Biology I was a little stunned to read the many statements Plato makes about the human body, for example, "Inflammations of the body are caused by bile..." and about the physical world "...when water is broken up into parts by fire or even air, it could happen that the parts recombine to form one corpuscule of fire and two of air". Like Genesis and the Epic of Gilgamesh, might Timaeus's image of the world be an allegory to something much deeper and more mysterious or did philosophers of his time feel such a need to categorize all that exists - to sum up the "Whole Picture"? Was it acceptable to extrapolate certain basic truths to all aspects of existence without anything but the most crude conjecture and evidence (if any evidence at all)? Is the Timaeus a primitive prefigurement to Einstein's idea of a "Unified Field Theory" to explain everything? Loosely speaking, I think it is, if one is to take this dialogue literally.
A line that sums up much of the Timaeus, 68b: "It is impossible, even approximately, to provide proof or likely account on these matters". It wouldn't have been out of place for this line to be the introductory sentence of the work with the explanation that within these "matters" are tiny seeds of truth that have been extrapolated from. Let me explain with an example: In 67d-68 Timaeus makes connections between the natures of sight, touch and taste in the same way that he tries to connect everything from the revolutions and movements of the cosmos to those of human souls. He is conflating unrelated ideas. (I think) he used these simple but wrong statements as metaphors of the world as a whole and as examples of its perfection on scales both large and small.
Granted, Plato's deductive reasoning is a hallmark of the scientific method as we know it, but he falls short (in the eyes of today's scientists) in his lack of empiricism. To us, Plato's shortcoming in this regard seems amazingly obvious but one must keep in mind that his philosophy is centered on the knowledge of abstract forms as opposed to empirical knowledge. "Why waste time in observation?", he might have asked. "The universe is based on Reason and the 5 solids, and perfection can only be visualized in one's mind in the form of Forms". Plato contends that the world as our senses sense it is an imperfect copy. Aristotle would come to be the first to place much importance on collecting evidence and observing the physical world (never mind that he claimed men have more teeth than women) and he, unlike Plato, left behind volumes of writings on his observations of the biological world.
Granted, Plato's deductive reasoning is a hallmark of the scientific method as we know it, but he falls short (in the eyes of today's scientists) in his lack of empiricism. To us, Plato's shortcoming in this regard seems amazingly obvious but one must keep in mind that his philosophy is centered on the knowledge of abstract forms as opposed to empirical knowledge. "Why waste time in observation?", he might have asked. "The universe is based on Reason and the 5 solids, and perfection can only be visualized in one's mind in the form of Forms". Plato contends that the world as our senses sense it is an imperfect copy. Aristotle would come to be the first to place much importance on collecting evidence and observing the physical world (never mind that he claimed men have more teeth than women) and he, unlike Plato, left behind volumes of writings on his observations of the biological world.
68d: "It is god who possesses Knowledge ... to mix a plurality into unity ... while no human being could possess either of these whether at the present time or at any time in the future." Here, Plato concedes that there comes a point where human reason ends and "Faith" begins - some knowledge is in the hands of the ineffable god and cannot be understood or explained by humans. Compared to the other Creation myths, Plato's approach is decidedly more overtly explanatory, philosophical and relies less on blind faith. However, his treatise depends on a priori logic. Unlike Genesis, Plato does not assume that the demiurge has petty human emotions and he relies more on his own observations of the physical, natural world to explain existence. Rather than imposing what he feels are an anthropomorphic deity's reasons for creating the cosmos, he explains the creation of the world on a much more cerebral and physical level. There is no mention of a personal god because that is the last thing Plato wants to rely on in his explanation of the nature of the world. 29b-c, "Don't be surprised then, Socrates, if it turns out repeatedly that we won't be able to produce accounts on a great many subjects - on gods or the coming to be of the universe - that are completely consistent and accurate. ...Keeping in mind that both I...and you...are only human." Indeed. Now if only we could find those lab books...
Paul,
ReplyDeleteWhen I lay lying in a friend's hammock in Spences Bridge last Labour Day weekend reading Timaeus, Genesis and the Koran excerpts, I really wondered what I had gotten myself into. Here's my summation of the 3 as I wrote in a letter to friends:
"...last night was the 1st class of my liberal studies ma at sfu. we had to read plato's timaeus (the world is built on triangles, the liver is the organ of divination, the body was created to support the head from which men may think, & men who don't fulfill their duties on this earth come back as women) and genesis (god's a fickle teenage girl and bad deeds are often rewarded) and a few serats (?) of the koran (god's a bit full of himself tooting his own horn and singing his own praises)"
May the force be with you! And good, thoughtful, observations BTW. Laughed at some of your sarcasm.
Alicia
Hey Paul,
ReplyDeleteThis is quite interesting, but, because I'm not (yet) familiar with the source, I don't feel I can add much here.
I am interested in cosmogonic myths & stories, however.
In your post are you in danger of being anachronistic in your observations of Plato and 'science'..?
The only 'science' I would see during this period would be in regards to 'physiks', or the 'natural' world. Although this idea is advanced and codified by Aristotle, it was certainly prevalent as far back as the pre-Socratics, in idea.
Are you possibly confusing cosmology for cosmogony..? I say this realising equally that I may (and probably am) missing your point :-)
Either way I think this is quite interesting and I hope I am not either coming across as glib or pedantic!
I just opened a blog and I think I linked to you, but I'm new at it...
Hi Amaguq!
ReplyDeleteThank you for your comment!
The Timaeus, the way I see it/read it, is a mix of cosmogony and cosmology. He does describe, in the beginning, how the universe was made and then proceeds to describe it as it is. In his description, there is no mention of the application of science as we know it (i.e. the scientific method, or anything resembling it). That is what I found so surprising... how could Plato have written the things Timaeus says?
To make fantastic claims that the cosmos/world/humans/animals/elements are "such and such" without any evidence (as we know it) and without much observation (as far as I know) seems ridiculous by our modern standards.
Knowing that Plato believed our senses provide us with a crude impression of the world, in the Timaeus I see him as sticking with his idea of "Forms" and making a priori claims based on it.
I did not know that "science" and "physiks" as you say were practiced differently by the Pre-Socratics than by Plato. I thought Aristotle was the first to put such importance on empiricism (compared to Plato's intellectual view which put total trust in mathematics and pure reasoning).
One say to consider Plato's task is to consider his insistence that ideas or questions like this had to be grounded in a 'metaphysics', which, as the word implies, is a set of understandings that are beyond or higher than mere 'physics', or what we might call 'science' based on observations. As the intro to the text keeps pointing out, for Socrates/Plato the observed world is only a world of 'becoming', a fluid world of change and shifting ground. Thus firm conclusions on issues like 'how did it get here', or what does it mean to be good' could never be drawn from observation, instruments or sense data, it had to come from a deeper understanding.
ReplyDeleteHey Paul, this discussion is quickly going to become dependent on semantics, history, and nuances of explanation that this electronic medium is not suited for and is often best aided with the help of the fermented 'hop bine' flower deriviatives (aka: beer :-)
ReplyDeleteWhat I was drawing attention to was what appears to me to be a possible confusion in the use of the term 'science'--both historically and semantically.
I was quite astounded to learn about what I did not know about science AFTER I did my physics degree. Perhaps I can direct you to two sources to see my point: One, the shorter, is the wiki entry on the 'history of the Scientific Method'(link below); the second being Arthur Koestler's, The Sleepwalkers (as if you don't have enough to read :-)
I'm in danger of sounding pedantic and looking paternalistic, so forgive me as I'm sure you know that isn't my intent. What I was alluding to in your thoughts above was that it appeared that you were using 'science' as we understand it AFTER Francis Bacon, but applying it to periods long before--this is what I meant by your observations being (possibly) anachronistic. Yes, something like 'science' existed then (and even earlier), but it was not the codified, self-conscious method as we understand it since Bacon.
Also, although the Ithacan's through to Aristotle developed a form of empiricism, it is not as we understand or use it today. In this sense it might be better to refer to such observations as philosophy and, more accurately, what is termed the 'perennial philosophy'; but, not 'science'--if we wish to be clear that is.
Finally, the reason I am thinking you may be in danger of this is illustrated in your comment that the observations in Timaeus are "a mix of cosmogony and cosmology." How we even use cosmogony today is quite different than, say, how it is used historically and even today through, for example, the study of mythology.
Also, cosmology as it is used today exists only after the period between Christiaan Huygens (l.17Th C.) and Christian Wolff (mid. 18thC.). In fact, even today, cosmology is often considered as a proto-science (not to be confused with pseudo, of course).
Ever in danger of pedantry, if I may quite: "Cosmology is the study of the structure and changes in the present universe, while the scientific field of cosmogony is concerned with the origin of the universe. Observations about our present universe may not only allow predictions to be made about the future, but they also provide clues to events that happened long ago when...the cosmos began. So—the work of cosmologists and cosmogonists overlaps" (NASA).
But, note here that they are referring to present day cosmology and scientific cosmogony. Very specific and contemporary fields that are very (very) different than how other disciplines use the term today, let alone historically.
Again, this just stood out to me and, not at all wanting to get lost in the details, I did think that clarifying this point may hone your observations.
In good faith:
Cheers,
Will
History of SM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_scientific_method)
Hi Paul,
ReplyDeleteInteresting to note that Plato isn't so far off in his ideas on observation of the physical world. It is difficult to observe the individual particles that make up our world (protons, electrons, etc) and the act of doing so changes their state (eg, position and momentum). Thus, theory plays a strong role in shaping our understanding of the universe. We seem to use empirical observation to try and confirm our theoretical models. That said, observations that don't agree with the current prevailing theory can result in newer and better theories.
Paul,
ReplyDeleteAnd so, on (and on) it goes...
You kindly remind us that Plato was linear "reason, then faith" surely as you try to eff the ineffable it can be allowed that faith and reason can co-exist?